Jonathan MacDonald, the driving force behind Scoop Restaurants – the group that includes Ox and Finch and Ka Pao, has just opened its latest restaurant at Edinburgh’s St James Quarter. Susan Young caught up with him to find out more.
I have long admired Glasgow restaurants Ox and Finch and Ka Pao, and having spent a couple of hours with boss Jonathan MacDonald, who founded the business, I can totally understand why his businesses are the success they are.
His ethos and drive, his passion for food and for flavour and his understanding of what makes hospitality and his team tick have played no small part.
His third venue, Ka Pao Edinburgh has just opened and on the day we met – at 9am – he tells me he had been in Edinburgh the previous day and had not driven home until the early hours.
It has certainly been a busy month, not only has the business, which trades under the collective Scoop Restaurants and employs 150 people, opened in Edinburgh, but Ka Pao Glasgow gained a Michelin Bib Gourmand this month joining its sister restaurant Ox and Finch which has had the accolade since it opened in 2014.
But let’s start at the beginning. I asked Jonathan what had brought him into hospitality.
He told me, “I suppose I really liked food and cooking. At 16 I got a Saturday job washing up and doing veg preparation at what was then Yes in Glasgow. I didn’t work with Ferrier Richardson but with Gary McLean, and I was like a sponge. I just soaked up as much as I could.
“I was blown away by the buzz in the kitchen, the atmosphere, energy and the different flavours that could be extracted from things. My interest in cooking grew from there. Over the years I have got more and more and more interested in other aspects – like the processes and logistics and of course the people aspect. I couldn’t sit at a desk, I like the variety of hospitality, and I think one of the reasons my restaurants have been successful is because we have a great team, and over the years we have retained them with people coming up through the ranks.”
While still at school, Jonathan did work experience at The Fairmount in St Andrews over the summer and after leaving school started full time at Gordon Ramsay’s Amaryllis at One Devonshire.
He then went to University and did a Hospitality Management Degree at the Hotel school at Strathclyde and during that time worked part-time at Brian Maule’s and also did some bar jobs and did some front of house and kitchen.
After graduating he headed South to London and got a Chef role with Absolute Taste an events company which specialised in events catering and whose high-profile events and clients included Formula One, Sailing events and international conference for companies such as Jaguar Landrover. Says Jonathan, “It was a great experience – although I was based in London, I got to travel and sometimes when travelling for work it was cheaper for them leave us in the part of world we were in between jobs – this meant I got time to spend in places like Vietnam, Singapore and Malaysia and I grew to love the cooking. This was where the seedling for Ka Pao came from.”
The travelling bug stayed with him and he decided to take off for Australia. He reveals, “I worked in Melbourne, and covered most of the Australian East Coast. I could only work for a few months at a time due to the visa regulations, but this suited me.” He also turned his hand to fruit picking – he laughs, “I thought I would be picking grapes in a nice winery in the Yarra, I ended up raking grapes up to dry for raisins and I also did stone fruit picking… and I thought working in a kitchen was physical!”
As well as Australia, he also headed to South East Asia and took a volunteer role at a school for the underprivileged in Hanoi, Vietnam, where he taught cooking. He loved it. “That was a great experience. It was at the opposite end of spectrum to my job in London – here I was teaching kids who had nothing, in the hope that the skills I was teaching would help them get a job. It was a reality check.”
When Jonathan came back to the UK he did consider at that time setting up on his own in London. But at the time, property there was expensive and competition was “crazy”. So he came back to Glasgow, not just for business, but by that time his girlfriend, Dawn, who became his wife, was there too.
Says Jonathan, “I thought Glasgow offered a great opportunity. We started looking for sites and in 2014 we opened Ox and Finch with Andy MacSween and Daniel Spurr. The name was the result of a brainstorming session and his first born was called Oscar Fraser (OF) so … he smiles, “I always think I should think of a better story.”
The timing of the new restaurant could not have been better. Says Jonathan, “We opened at the perfect time. Glasgow was buzzing with the Commonwealth Games and instantly it was busy and it has been ever since.”
They financed the new restaurant with help from a family loan and the two had also been running a mobile kitchen for catering weddings and other events, and also had organised a few pop up restaurants – under the auspices of the Street Food Cartel. Says Jonathan, “We didn’t spend a huge amount of money on Ox and Finch – but the fact that we had been doing pop-ups meant we had been able to build a team, and had created relationships with suppliers and had a bit of cash flow, although it hadn’t been hugely profitable. It also helped that it wasn’t a cold start – we had quite a lot of social media around our cartel events – that was before you had to pay to get social media to go anywhere.”
He continues, “We did a lot of the work ourselves – myself, Andy and Daniel stripped it all out ourselves, and we used tradesmen like plumbers and decorators. Now we joke that we fitted it out for the cost of the ventilation fans in Ka Pao! It makes me shudder when I think about what the last two fitouts cost in comparison.
“We didn’t expect Ox and Finch to be so busy. Initially when it opened Daniel and myself would take it day about – I would work one day with one other and Daniel would do one day with one other… we soon realised that with the volume of customers we needed more staff – a bigger prep kitchen, fridge and more than just a six burner and a wee electric oven. I still laugh when I think of it.
“Many of my current team all started at Ox and Finch and have come up through the ranks from kitchen porter all the way. Some have gone away and come back.”
The decision to open Ka Pao was made in 2015, that’s when the trio originally looked at the former Arnold Clark garage in Vinicombe Street. But it took another four years before the restaurant opened.
Jonathan explains, “We saw it first in 2015, we got in 2017, but it ended up being 2019 before we opened. Because of the nature of the building there were lots of complications and delays, even at the fit out stage we found more issues. It seemed to be never ending. The first time we came in to see it there were still petrol tanks in the middle and pigeons living in the space.
“I love seeing a building in its original state. It is really exciting. Stuart Black at Mosaic, who had previously worked with my dad on some projects, was the perfect man to help us create Ka Pao. He has great vision – not just for the space, and the aesthetics but the operational side too. He has also done Ka Pao, Edinburgh.
“We didn’t want either restaurant to look themed or kitsch. The menu we describe as being “influenced” by the cooking of South East Asia – but all the ideas at Vinicombe Street were designed to recognise the heritage of the building, from the green tiles which mirror the colour of the outside of the building, and the glazed brick. The entrance is quite discreet and understated – due to the facade being listed. I like the fact that people come down the stairs and are amazed by how vast it is – it seats 150. And at night it feels more like a club than a restaurant. We have taken many of the features here and used them in Ka Pao Edinburgh too – such as the tiles and the brickwork and some of the colours. Edinburgh has just opened, but Ka Pao Glasgow opened on 21st January 2020. It was such a relief to get it opened, then we had to shut on the 17th March.”
Jonathan continues, “We had just started to find our feet – and although we then did takeaway and meal boxes it made more sense to close. We managed to defer our bank loan, our landlords Arnold Clark were great and we were able to extend our rent free period, and we also were insured and managed to get our insurance paid which not everyone did. So we were in a relatively good place compared to some. But it was stressful, without furlough it would have been a different story – we would have been nowhere. Before furlough was announced I remember sitting with Paul, my uncle, and my brother Andrew and looking at the numbers and trying to work out how long we could survive with the tap turned off. When furlough was announced it was a great relief, and I was surprised it was as much as 80%. We were able to retain everybody. However, when flexible furlough was introduced that was challenging.
“It was also difficult because the parameters for hospitality kept changing. I do feel that hospitality got a doing – although things went back to relative normality, we were still having to adhere to social distancing rules. The government dictated when we could open and close and so on. It felt that they were picking things out of a hat. It was arbitrary stuff and honestly I think it felt more like gesture politics than anything else.”
But the end of lockdown brought opportunities to the fore. And this was when Jonathan was approached about Edinburgh. He says “We were asked if we wanted to go through and see some units and I really liked the one we ended up taking at St James Quarter. It has a big outside aspect and it is a stand-alone unit – but part of the St James Quarter which is a real leisure destination, means we really have the best of both worlds.
“Ka Pao Edinburgh is a bit smaller than Glasgow with 100 covers and it has massive footfall all day, every day. And since opening there has been a lot of international customers too. During the festival the Spiegeltent will be right outside and there are lots of different activations and events planned for the centre. It will be a really busy site. (See the design feature for more.)
“The Alchemist is nearby and Sushi Samba is going on top of the W Hotel which will open later this year. I like it when there are more places for people to go – Ox and Finch only got busier the more places that opened nearby. That’s also why I am excited about the Crabshakk opening next to us in Vinicombe Street. It will bring more people into the area and makes it more of a destination.”
However, having said that, Ka Pao has certainly made its mark in the West End since opening. In fact it has just received a Michelin Bib Gourmand. Says Jonathan, “It’s great that the team have been recognised for their hard work. Ox and Finch have had it since it opened – eight years in a row – I sometimes worry, if we didn’t have it would anything happen? People don’t go there because it has two rosettes although it probably helps attract people from outside the city and it is quite good for recruitment. Chefs like to work in places with Michelin accolades.”
The team certainly is in with the bricks. Daniel, who was the original Head Chef at Ox and Finch, now oversees the operations of all the restaurants – kitchens, food, drink service, and operationally the team report in to him.
“He is probably the most key individual”, says Jonathan. “It is great for me, because there are so many other parts of running a business, and that’s where I focus my energy. I do love the design aspect too. I love seeing things go from an idea on paper, procuring it all and getting contractors in and all the problem solving – it is weird and perhaps I am a bit addicted to the stress!
“One part of this business that I get a real buzz out of is seeing people progressing. Our full management team has come up through the ranks, some were waiting staff or chef de parties and kitchen porters. They have worked for a long time and progressed through our business. I like the culture that we have created and the fact that people stick around. It sounds cheesy but we do have a nice family unit. Everyone looks out for each other. They enjoy their jobs and the business gets the benefit of it. They care. For instance Kieran our Bars Manager will go through to Edinburgh to help out even when he is off. Everyone is really tight-knit like that and they care.”
As for people thinking about a role in hospitality, I asked him what his advice would be, “Get as much experience in good places as you can – a good place doesn’t have to be super fancy but it needs to do what it does really well and with integrity whether that is casual or fine dining. Pick somewhere you are proud to work where people are passionate about it. That’s where you will gain the most experience. That’s where you will get looked after best. It goes without saying you will be working evenings and weekends – to be able to work somewhere that you are proud of and which clicks with you makes more sense because you will enjoy it more.
“It is a fallacy that hospitality is low paid. All our guys do a 3.5 days week – a maximum of 48 hours with guaranteed tips and a good salary. They are earning 20/30% more, before their tips, than they would make in most office jobs. It annoys me that there is still the mentality that it is not a career. It is. Lots of senior guys have great careers and flexibility and they can do the things they enjoy every day. They can get creative about wine, food, training and get such exposure to so many different things.
“I have 12 chefs on rota in Ox and Finch – some people would say this is bonkers. But there is always prep to do (if the restaurant is not jumping) they do 3.5 days on, 3.5 days off and that adds up to 12 people. A lot of restaurants would have nothing like that size of team but we have managed to sustain it. We do try and pay a bit more than the going rate and our staff do make great tips and the tips are written into contracts.”
It obviously helps that Jonathan is a chef to trade, he understands how kitchens work and what motivates his staff. It has been his own experiences which have helped form his management style and ethos.
He says, “Initially when I was at Yes, I was really young, and I learned so much, so quickly from Mark Burrows and Gary McLean. It helped that I went in with maximum enthusiasm. Brian Maule’s work ethic is incredible and that also made a deep impression while my boss Lindy at Absolute Taste, taught me to push things a bit further. This is why I think I now am prepared to take more risks than some of my competitors.”
He certainly doesn’t do things by halves… that comes to family life too. With four children under the age of 8, he and wife Dawn have a lot on their plate. He smiles, “It helps that Dawn is very laid back. But I know when I do a few weeks on, and the last few weeks have been crazy, I like taking some time off for family time. We take our kids to Paesano and Sugo –we need to find somewhere quick and noisy and with things they like to eat. On the rare occasion it is just Dawn and myself we don’t go too far, but head down to Partick Duck Club, Gaga or Balbirs for a curry.”
And what is on the menu next… “I have another property in Glasgow city centre but I haven’t quite got my head around it yet. But I think we will most likely go down a similar route to Ox and Finch.”
Jonathan and his team are certainly on a journey and the saying “The road to success is not a path you find, but a trail you blaze,” certainly fits!